How to Approach Starting Your Own Podcast With Jeremy Cline

[Excerpt] Jeremy: It doesn’t have to be perfect. And even the best podcasters in the world are still played by these mistakes. And it’s not always quite perfect sort of production quality.

[00:00:32] Nemanja: Welcome to the Nootka Sound Podcast, I’m your host Nemanja Koljaja, a professional Sound Engineer, Audio Editor and Podcast Producer and a CEO and Founder of Nootka Sound, a professional podcast production facility. Today we are sitting down with Jeremy Cline, the host for his show Change Work Life which is all about helping people make the changes big or small they need to become someone who genuinely enjoys what they do for a living. Well, Jeremy, pleasure to have you here, welcome to the show

[00:01:03] Jeremy: Thank you very much for having me, Nemanja, it’s great to be here.

[00:01:06] Nemanja: Awesome. Okay. I’d like to hear more about the Change Work Life podcast and how you got started.

[00:01:11] Jeremy: Yeah. Okay. So to try and cut a long story short, I guess, by background and profession, I’m actually a lawyer and I’ve been doing that now for 15, 16 years, something like that. And I guess the past little while I was kind of wondering, yeah, I’ve been doing it for a while and do I want to be doing it for the next 20 – 25 years. And I kind of wanted to see what else was out there. And I was quite taken with the idea of starting something of my own. So I had various ideas as to what that might be. And then actually with a bit of coaching, I’ve gotten a sort of career … life coach to give me a bit of help. I thought, well, you know what, I’m going to start with a podcast. It’s a bit of an unusual thing to start with when you’re looking to, you know, maybe start your own business, but I kind of had an idea that it might be possible to monetize it, which I still think is the case for probably not in the way that I originally thought might be possible. I thought it’d be something that I enjoy doing, particularly talking to people. And I thought that talking to people about career changes and that sort of thing would be interesting, useful for other people and also quite useful for me. So that is the background to why I started the podcast in the first place.

[00:02:32] Nemanja: Okay, awesome. Can you tell me, what is your end goal with this podcast?

[00:02:37] Jeremy: A lot of people who start a podcast because they’ve got a business already that they want to promote, I’m kind of doing backwards, which is a topic which is of interest to me, I’m sure that it’s a topic of interest to other people because let’s face it you meet enough people who if you asked them, you know do you enjoy your job? And they say nah, not really. And so I wanted to start something for those people, but then in terms of what it might become a really wanted to build up an audience and also start building up an email list, which I’ve literally just started doing and then find out from people what they wanted. So rather than guess that, you know, a course might be useful or coaching or whatever that might be, build up an audience and then ask them. So what’s the biggest problem or difficulty that you’re facing and work on that, to see where it might go to next. What’s going to be most useful for them.

[00:03:35] Nemanja: Yeah. Well that sounds amazing. You’ve just uploaded your 42nd episode of the show. Can you tell me how often do you upload and was it hard for you to keep up with the upload schedule?

[00:03:47] Jeremy: Yeah. So my podcast episodes come out weekly. So I’m actually up to episode fourty of my kind of regular weekly episodes. There’s a couple of bonus episodes, which I put out really in response to the COVID crisis, COVID situation. Obviously that meant everyone was going through very uncertain times in terms of their jobs and things. And I wanted to acknowledge that. And so actually the second of those two bonus episodes I got on a recruitment coach. She coaches people with interviews and how to get jobs and that sort of thing, just to ask her, what the market was like in the sort of Coronavirus world? She was actually very optimistic, which I was pleasantly surprised by. So it’s been 40 regular episodes and it’s not been too hard finding guests. I have had guests from various different sources, some personal contacts, some Facebook groups I’ve been involved with, a few people who since I’ve been going have actually approached me. So I’ve had, it’s not been difficult to get the number of interviews. What I did find was that I then got slightly trapped in a bit of a hamster wheel of, okay, so you get the raw interviews, but then there’s editing them, putting the shows together during the show notes, all that sort of thing. And. I realized that the way I was doing it was a bit sort of like, you know, constantly not getting next week show out when you just finished this week show, I was always getting them done quite far in advance. So I’d have four episodes which were kind of uploaded and scheduled and ready to go. But I seem to be spending you know, a lot of my time either doing the interviews or doing the editing or doing that kind of stuff. And so not that much time to take a step back and do the other stuff, like trying to build up my audience and getting my email list set up and that sort of thing. So, yeah. It’s not been too bad finding people so far, but yeah, I don’t think I realized quite how time consuming all the other stuff would be, which is one of the reasons why I actually I’ve now started getting my podcasts edited by someone else before they go out.

[00:06:03] Nemanja: Yeah, well, that’s totally true. I mean, it’s kind of hard being a one man band with this podcasting thing, there’s so much to think about. And as you’ve said, generally, the post production, especially the editing work takes a lot of time. So I totally understand what you mean.

[00:06:19] Jeremy: I mean, I’m glad I did the first, I think I did the first 20 episodes by myself.

[00:06:23] Nemanja: Yeah.

[00:06:23] Jeremy: And I’m glad I did because now know that I can. So if, an editor lets me down or, you know, something happened is I know that I can always fall back on myself to do it myself, but now I definitely realize that it’s worth getting some help with that aspect of it.

[00:06:41] Nemanja: Okay. So what do you use to promote the show? Can you tell me what worked for you in the past and what didn’t, when it comes to increasing your audience?

[00:06:49] Jeremy: Well, I don’t know if I found out what works yet. Cause my audience numbers aren’t exactly stellar, but I think my audience comes from two main sources. One is Facebook and I have to say that is principally people that I already knew on Facebook anyway. Every episode, I put out a new post about that so I get listeners that way and the other way, which slightly random when I was starting to think about the podcast and I was trying to find where the audience lived. So where do people who have got questions about changing career and that sort of thing? Where do they occupy? I found that actually Reddit seems to be where most of them are, there’s a number of chat groups on Reddit, all around careers and that sort of thing. And so I’ll pop up there and if someone asks a question, which I think actually, you know what, I’ve got an episode which deals with that very topic, then I can say, Hey, I’ve actually covered this on my podcast have a listen if this might be of help. And it’s also been a really great source of ideas for episodes, as well as, you know, you see the same sorts of topics coming up time and time again. So you think, well, clearly that’s something that people want to listen to.

[00:08:00] Nemanja: That’s a great way to actually curate the content in regards to your audience. You said you rely on Facebook for getting the views. How much do you rely on other social media? For example, Instagram or Twitter?

[00:08:15] Jeremy: At the moment I don’t at all. And that’s simply because I just haven’t had the time to do all that. I have a fairly limited amount of time in which I can focus on the podcast. And so I initially wanted to start with just one social media platform and Facebook was the one that I was already familiar with and use the most. It’s on the, to do list, the to do list I’m hoping I’ll have more time to look at as I hand off more stuff to investigate and get my podcast on other platforms like Twitter and Instagram in particular. So yeah, I am keen to use them. I just haven’t had time yet.

[00:08:52] Nemanja: Cool. I want to talk to you about the content you put out. So most people will know the feeling of dread on a beautiful Sunday evening when they remember they have to go to work tomorrow. Do you have any advice on how to get rid of that feeling?

[00:09:06] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I’m still working on it myself, but I guess the first thing is that one of the comments that I often see is that. Oh, it’s just the nature of work, you know, no one really enjoys their job and to kind of expect to enjoy your job, you know, it’s just, you find your pleasure in other things, you know, your hobbies or your family or your TV or, or whatever it is, and that it’s not possible necessarily, unless you’re very lucky to actually enjoy your job. So one of the things I’ve definitely learned from speaking to people on the podcast is that, that is definitely not the case. There are people who truly love what they do, and it is possible. The hard work comes in identifying what that is, and also making a distinction between doing what you love and loving what you do. I think a lot of people get hung up on this fear that they kind of need to have this sort of overarching passion, this purpose, this sort of thing that drives them, whereas you didn’t necessarily need that. And great if you’ve got it, but it’s more important finding something that aligns with what you enjoy doing, what you’re good at, what your values are? And so it’s quite an interesting exercise, just writing down things like, well, what am I good at? What I’m good at this. I’m good at that. I’m good at the other, what things do I actually enjoy doing? And sometimes there’s crossover between what you’re good at and what you enjoy doing, but sometimes you find that there are things that you’re good at that you don’t necessarily enjoy doing them.

And then there’s, it was one of my first episodes where the music career coach, who said that very few people think about what is it that you actually want your job to do for you? So looking at it that way round, what kind of lifestyle is it that you want your job to support? And what does that mean in terms of how much you earn? How much annual leave you get, whether you do a job which requires commuting and which eats into the working day, all that sort of stuff. And the first thing to do really is forget about jobs. Don’t go, well, you know, I’ve done blah, blah, blah. for the past five years, what’s jobs would be good for me. You take a step back from that and you look at well, what do I like, what am I good at? What do I want my job to support what I want it to do for me? And at that you might go through that exercise and it leads to a completely, a path that you just weren’t expecting. You know, someone who’s been a programmer for 20 years, and then they go through the exercise and suddenly get the realization that actually they want to be an events manager or something like that. So it’s. Knowing yourself and taking time to identify yourself is a first step. And also recognizing that your values and beliefs do change over time. You know, that’s why the midlife crisis comes about because people sit down a path, which suits them at a particular time in their lives. But it doesn’t necessarily suit them when their life circumstances have changed. So when they’re a bit older, maybe married with kids or whatever, and all your belief system has changed in the meantime, and it just doesn’t suit.

[00:12:29] Nemanja: Yeah. I mean, that’s some amazing advice, actually speaking from my experience, I’ve been working as a sound engineer for a decade now, and I must say I’m one of those people who are really lucky to have found themselves in the job they’re doing. So I’m really happy. I was really happy when I started this and I’m still really happy now and yeah

[00:12:51] Jeremy: That’s awesome.

[00:12:52] Nemanja: Yeah. Okay. So you said you were a lawyer, so the podcasting is kind of a hobby to you, am I right?

[00:12:59] Jeremy: Yeah. I mean, it’s, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a side business at the moment, because at the moment it doesn’t actually make any money, but it’s a side project.

[00:13:08] Nemanja: Okay. So what would make you quit your day job and focus on pursuing podcasting?

[00:13:15] Jeremy: I think first of all, I’d need to demonstrate that I either … or something related to it or whatever I ended up doing can support me. Cause you know, the fact is I’ve got a mortgage to pay and I’ve got the family to keep. So if I kind of had an indication that it could support my living and the lifestyle, I’d like to keep going, then I think that would be, that’d be what it would take for me to go in full time.

[00:13:44] Nemanja: Okay. So do you have an advice for people who just can’t stand their jobs is the best way to approach it just to quit or is there something else that’s worth trying out?

[00:13:55] Jeremy: There are different schools of thoughts about whether it’s sensible just to quit a job without having anything to go to. I largely sit in the camp of it’s better not to quit without having something to go to, unless it’s really, really bad. I mean, sort of affecting mental health, causing depression, causing you to kind of cry yourself to sleep the night before sort of bad. And that’s not in any way to sort of diminish that you know people do find themselves in that situation, but I think it’s got to be quite extreme to quit without going to something. And there’s two main reasons for that. One is obviously the risk. I mean, unless you’re in a position financially where you can afford not to have an income coming in for an indeterminate period then it’s quite risky. I mean, if you quit, and the knowledge that you’ve got to get a job, any job in the next three months, then that puts a heck of a lot of pressure on you to get that job. And you’re just having that pressure properly is going to make it more difficult to do the applications in the interviews and all that sort of thing. And the other reason is unless you have got sort of something to focus your days on, it can be quite, de-motivating just sort of not having anything to do other than job applications. It’s very easy to drift. I think when you’ve got sort of deadlines and limited time, that kind of thing, your mind gets much more focused. Whereas, if you’ve basically do anything you’ve got to do in your day are make some job applications then unless you’re extremely, self-disciplined, it’s quite hard to summon up the focus to do that without getting distracted on other things, you know, it’s a lovely day. I’m going to go for a walk. Oh, this is on telly, I’ll watch that. Oh, you know? Yeah. There’s so many things that can easily distract you. So I’m not saying that it’s never wrong just to sort of up and leave and quit, but I think there’s got to be some fairly strong circumstances to do that. Now. I think people who hear this might then think, Oh, so does that mean that, you know, I’ve got to carry on looking for a job whilst doing something which I really don’t know enjoy. And the answers that might be yes, but a useful little mind trick sort of way of thinking about it, that someone mentioned to me was that kind of whatever you do, there is going to be aspects to it that you don’t enjoy. I’m sure even in your line of work, in podcast production, there are certain particular tasks which kind of make you think. Oh, you know, I really don’t want to do this, but it’s kind of good practice to recognize that there are those things. And so particularly if you can see that you are working towards getting out of a particular job, having the mindset of, okay, so this is just good practice for me for doing the stuff that I don’t like, knowing that this is going to be the minority of my time and most of the time is going be the majority of my time. Then actually it’s quite good practice. Just getting into the mindset of doing that.

[00:17:20] Nemanja: Yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. And how much do you think work efficiency of employees is influenced by their affection for the job they’re doing?

[00:17:30] Jeremy: I think it probably is. I dare say that someone’s work efficiency goes down if they’ve kind of mentally checked out to the job.

[00:17:39] Nemanja: Yeah.

[00:17:40] Jeremy: I’ve no idea what sort of statistics might back up that  and it probably also  depends on what line of work you’re in. But I would imagine that people probably are maybe not less efficient, but less effective at their job if they’re not really interested in it.

[00:17:55] Nemanja: Yeah, let’s go back to podcasting. You already said you outsource the editing and post-production work. And what I wanted to ask you is what resources did you use to find the person who’s doing the editing for you?

[00:18:07] Jeremy: Upwork. I know that there are sort of services such as your own in various others, your Podcast Press and the like who will do editing services. I’ve heard some good reviews, some bad reviews from them and this sort of  cost aspect. I mean, I am bootstrapping my podcasts, so I’m kind of trying to keep costs to a reasonable minimum. And when I had a sort of an, you know, an idea in my mind as to what I thought would be affordable to outsource it and put out on Upwork, then I saw that, yeah, there are people available there who do it. So I;ve found people on there, it’s been an interesting experience and you never really know quite what you’re going to get, but most people on Upwork seem to be quite prepared to give you a sample and of course. if you don’t like something that they’ve done, then there’s other people out there. You operated on Upwork a bit haven’t you? Is that right?

[00:19:04Nemanja:] Yeah. That’s true. And yeah, I find Upwork is really an interesting platform, especially in the last couple of years with all of the changes that has been happening around the terms of services and everything like that. But I think it is a reliable platform to find whatever you’re looking for.

[00:19:23] Jeremy: Yeah. I mean, I have no idea what it’s like from the perspective of freelances. Although I know that Upwork takes their cut, but I’ve been quite pleasantly surprised when I’ve posted jobs on there, what the reaction’s been. Cause it’s not just the editors for the podcast. I also found someone on Upwork who helps me with the transcripts. I use one of the online AI based transcription services, which is fine for a first pass. But the quality, you know, I wanted proper transcripts that people could read that don’t have lots of spelling mistakes and lots of weird interpretations of words. So I also hired a freelance on Upwork to go through the AI generated transcripts and turn into proper transcripts. That’s also worked really well.

[00:20:13] Nemanja: Yeah. The only piece of software that I rely for transcription is Descript. And I think it is the most reliable piece of software out there. Yes. It can make some mistakes and not recognize words, but in my experience, like it gets 95% of the words right. So basically, all you have to do is go through the transcript once and then remove all of the mistakes and, you know, make sure everything’s fine. And since I’ve started using Descript, it has actually helped me reduce the amount of time. It takes me to transcribe an episode.

[00:20:53] Jeremy: Really interesting. Yeah. I’ve been interested to sort of compare the different transcription services. Yeah. So I’ve used Otter quite a bit, which has generally been pretty good. And that’s what I was using before Descript came on the block, but yeah, podcast transcripts seems to be such a hot topic at the moment. Do you include them, what sort of standard should they be all that kind of stuff?

[00:21:17] Nemanja: Yeah. Can you tell me, where did you learn about all of the equipment you need, like recording equipment and how to actually start a podcast?

[00:21:26] Jeremy: Yeah, through a few different courses actually, when I first started looking at the courses, I found a couple on Udemy, which you sign up for Udemy and like the first few courses you can buy a ridiculous knock down price. So I found a couple on there and they weren’t bad. They got you a fair way. But I wasn’t sure that they would necessarily quite answer all the questions I was going to have as I went through the process. So I then took the decision to fork out a little bit more. And have you ever come across the Pat Flynn’s Smart, passive Income and all of his content?

[00:22:06] Nemanja: No, I haven’t to be honest.

[00:22:08] Jeremy: Okay. He’s worth looking up. I mean, he’s yeah. I mean, massive in the podcasting space and he has a course all about basically starting a podcast and it was certainly more expensive than the Udemy courses I’d done, but it was just better quality. And there were a few things he said, which you just kind of got the impression that they were better practice than the cheaper courses. Another one that sticks in my mind was like the requirements for the podcast logo and that sort of thing. And also his courses you have access to a Facebook group as well, and that’s been really helpful. So, you know, you can ask the stupidest questions you like, and there are people in there who are extremely welcoming and engaging and happy to help you out when you’re just starting out and you know, now my podcast has been going for eight, 10 months or so I’m finding, I’m kind of one of the people who’s dispensing the advice as well as asking for advice is a really nice community and it comes with a price tag, but it’s, you can probably find out. Almost everything you need about starting a podcast from what’s out there for free, you know, various other Facebook groups, or those are websites that have got how to start a podcast tutorials and that kind of thing. What I found with the course was that it kind of tells you what you need when you need it. So it just, it saves you a lot of time. You know, if you translate time into money, then it saved you a heck of a lot of time just in terms of right okay, so then this is what you need to do next. And then this is what you need to do next. And yeah, I’ve not looked back from it. 

[00:23:52] Nemanja: Yeah. Well, it seems to me like the course really is worth checking out. From my experience Udemy courses tend to be a gamble, you know, sometimes they’re really good then sometimes they’re not really that helpful.

[00:24:06] Jeremy: And you don’t know how up to date they are as well.

[00:24:08] Nemanja: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Jeremy: You know, there are some somewhere the standards have changed or they don’t talk about things like Spotify or whatever, when they’re still using old providers and it can be three or four years out of date and you kind of need a bit more up to date information because it’s moving so quickly.

[00:24:25] Nemanja: Yeah, totally, like four or five years ago today seems like I don’t know, 40 or 50 years ago in terms of the technology and how fast it changes.

[00:24:35] Jeremy: Yeah, completely.

[00:24:36] Nemanja: Okay. Do you think anybody can be a podcast host or do you think people need to possess a certain skill in order to have success in their podcasts career?

[00:24:46] Jeremy: I think in principle, anyone can do it. I think you, you need to play to your strengths. I mean, if it’s an interview podcast, for example, you need to be curious about people and as you do it in your interviews and sort of ask open questions and draw out and you delve deeper into topics. I think if you’re going to do an interview show, you’ve got to have a natural curiosity about people, you need a subject that’s going to interest you. And I think it helps if you do have an idea as to what you are looking to achieve with your podcast, is it a subject where you’re just so passionate about it, that you just want to talk about it all day? And you know, there are other people who want to listen. Is it something where you just feel like you want to teach people? Is it something where you just using it as a platform so that you can talk to other interesting people because you know some people do that and I certainly wouldn’t have, well, I wouldn’t have spoken to all the people that I’ve spoken to on my podcast if I didn’t have the podcast in the first place. So it’s made some really interesting connections and I’ve met some fascinating people. So I think in principle, anyone can do it provided it’s within your sort of strengths and skillsets. I mean, you know, if you’re someone who just the idea of speaking in front of a microphone fills you with fear, then it’s probably not for you. I mean, maybe you can do it as a sort of a joint thing where, you know, you do the backend stuff because you really love all the technical backend, but you work with someone else who’s more comfortable behind the mic.

[00:26:21] Nemanja: Yeah. That makes sense. What would you recommend to someone who’s just starting out?

[00:26:26] Jeremy: I’m going to assume that I’m talking someone who is very serious about starting a podcast. I would say have a, an idea as to who you’re targeting and where you can find them so that you can get an audience still was something I’m very, very much working on. I mean, I’m one of the things I really want to do is increase my download numbers the other thing I’d say is get on and do it.

[00:26:54] Nemanja: Yeah.

[00:26:54] Jeremy: Because there are a massive number of courses and things that you can do out there and it’s like there’s so many things how you can be in sort of learning mode and, Oh, there’s another article to read and know there’s something else and you can become a massive expert about podcasting, but never actually do it. So do it, get out there, take the first steps. Yeah, I think it was actually Pat Flynn, the guy I mentioned before on one of his podcast episodes, someone told him that it would probably take about 30 episodes in before he was kind of happy before we kind of go there before things started to really click into place.And I think that’s probably right. I mean, I’m now kind of. 40 episodes in and I feel like I’ve got more of the system getting and I’m more comfortable with where things are going and you don’t get that unless you’ve got out there and done it. So if you want to start a podcast and you’ve got a topic that you want your podcast to be on, then just go ahead and do it. I mean, it’s never been easier and you don’t necessarily need lots of expensive equipment. You know, I’ve got a USB mic, I’ve got a pop filter, but it’s a USB mic that didn’t cost me a huge amount of money and the sound quality compared to just using, you know, a pair of speaker buds or something  like that is much higher. So it’s not technically difficult to start I think probably the greatest difficulty lies in the mindset of just going for it.

[00:28:26] Nemanja: Totally true. I mean, the smart way to do it is to actually come up with the target audience before actually starting the podcast. So finding that target audience first and then formatting the show around it and around the audience. The most important step is actually the first step to actually go out there and record that first episode. And yeah, everything else just comes naturally with time.

[00:28:51] Jeremy: Mhmm. And you’re completely right about being worth finding out who your audience is and who, where they are. I actually put together like an avatar, which I send to my guests before my interviews. So I, you know, I say, this is the kind of person that we’re talking to. So you know who you’re helping. And that’s been really helpful for me in terms of focusing the direction of the conversation. And you can be prepared to let that evolve. You might have a target audience in mind and an idea that they want to hear about it particular subjects, but you won’t really know that until you get on and do it and get some feedback on whether what you’re saying is resonating with them.

[00:29:33] Nemanja: Okay. So what are some of the podcasts that you enjoy listening in your spare time?

[00:29:38] Jeremy: Yeah, I guess the ones I listened to kind of broadly divided between sort of business through personal developments, I suppose, news and current affairs, politics sort of things, and more sort of entertainment, comedy sort of stuff. So in the first category we’ve mentioned Pat Flynn, Smart, Passive Income. The other personal developed one that I really listened to is Tim Ferris. The interviews are great. And obviously he’s, you know, he’s got this amazing reputation in the podcasting space for the standard of his interviews and the quality of his guests. But I kind of find some reassurance in the fact that for example, he will often recycle the questions so he’ll ask the same sort of question to different guests and it kind of makes you realize that that’s okay. That is acceptable. Even the best podcasters is in the world are doing that. There was an episode recently where something tech went wrong and so they ended up doing the whole interview on phone rather than over the internet and the sound quality was materially worse, but it was still, you know, you could still listen to it. You can still get what you needed from it. And again, it kind of makes you realize that. It doesn’t have to be perfect. And even the best podcasters in the world are still played by these mistakes. And it’s not always quite perfect sort of production quality. So that’s great. There’s a political journalist in the UK, who’s called Nick Robinson.

I think he used to be political editor of the BBC, and he’s got his own podcast where he interviews politicians about their background and various issues of the day and it’s quite topical. But his style is one that I’m kind of learning from the way he approaches asking questions and also the way he does his intros and outros actually, I’ve kind of found myself using him as one of my influences when it comes to how I present myself on my podcast. So yeah, it’s a bit of a mixed bag. One of those things where there’s so many podcasts out there, I could listen to more, but I know that I just have limited time. And so I try not to discover new podcasts too often.

[00:31:55] Nemanja: Totally understand. Okay. So do you have any last words you’d like to share with us?

[00:32:00] Jeremy: So my podcast lives on a website called Change Work Life.com.

And for your listeners, I’ve actually put together a couple of exercises, which kind of builds on what we were saying about the two questions to ask yourself the sort of, you know, the, what do you enjoy doing? What are you good at and also the, what do you want your job to do for you. So if your listeners go to changeworklife.com/nootkasound .So now there was the name of your podcast, then yeah you’ll find the exercises there. So if there’s anyone in your audience who is kind of a bit fed up with their career, but they just don’t really know where to start in terms of looking elsewhere, then yeah. That’s a good place to start.

[00:32:44] Nemanja: Yeah, that sounds amazing. Thank you so much for putting this little thing together. Okay so where can our listeners reach you and check out your show? 

[00:32:53] Jeremy: changeworklife.com. There is a contact page there there’s also a link to my Facebook group. So. Yeah, those are probably the best two ways of getting in touch.

[00:33:05] Nemanja: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time

That’s it!

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